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You are being written by experience. Thus, you are inseparable from experience. If you are inseparable, who's experiencing? Hello all, I have some thoughts to share on the Gateless Gatecrashers book and this style of direct pointing in general. Definitely not 3rd or 4th. Some of these isnights I can tap into at will or with some work, others have come up spontaneously and were either frequent or intense enough that I can remember many aspects of what they felt like clearly. How I have approached the book I have read a part of the dialogues. Not all of them, also because they become a bit repetitive after a time, I have done my best to put myself in the shoes of the "pointee", comparing their experiences with mine, thinking up what my answer would be to each of the pointing tips, based on my current and past experiences.

My main question was: Would I qualify for having crashed what they call the Gateless Gate? The good The people doing direct pointing definitely seem to have some insight into no-self.

Gateless Gatecrashers

Some of the directions they give were kind of new to me. All of them seem to be pointing at something that is good and useful, both the familiar and the unfamiliar ones. No pointing seemed 'wrong' or not useful. The enthusiasm and commitment of Ilona and Elena is also very nice, and they come across as nice people.

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That is unfortunately not a given, as we know. The not as good They seem to have relatively low standards for having crashed the gateless gate. The minimum that seems to be required to 'have made it' seems to be two ingredients: 1 Using direct effort, being able to investigate the feeling of "selfness" in real time and being able to see that it is illusory and nowhere to be found in practice.

I repeat, this does not need to be a real-time, permanent, unconditioned shift into something like what MCTB calls non-duality. Rather, an at-will ability to see that the self is slippery and nowhere to be found is enough. See, for example, the chapter called "Jamie" in Gateless Crashers. In that chapter, Jaime passes the "having crashed the gate" test, but it seems to me that he doesn't have MCTB 4th path or anything comparable to it. So the problem here is that 1 is, in my opinion, a low standard, so 2 is a dead end.

Disclaimer: Reading the book, it is entirely possibile that the Ilona and Elena themselves have a higher realisation of than one I have given above. Similarly, I cannot exclude that some of the pointees have obtained more than 1. However, the minimum standard that they set for the pontees is the one I have given above, and that seems to be it. So would I qualify for having crashed what they call the Gateless Gate?

I am afraid I would, and that is disappointing. I am currently able to chase the perception of a self around and see it slip from one "place" to another one until it becomes clear, in an experiential-deductive way, that there is actually no self to be found. In my current scale, this is some relatively low-level insight into no-self and not into non-duality.

So: A. The problem is: I know, from direct experience, that there is much more to it than 1 above. It is not enough to know that a self cannot be found and 2 giving up. I know from direct experience that it is possible to shift into a "state" in which: - The idea of there being a self that can be looked for and debunked in real time with effort and then given up is replaced by a direct, radical non-experience of the self. I believe, based on MCTB and people I have talked to, that "stabilising" this in real time is possible. Therefore, I will keep on looking.

Feel free to play with it, but do not fool yourself into thinking that it is the endgame. Makes sense? If you believe that I am wrong, and there is more to this style of Direct Pointing than what I have called 1 , and you can point me hehe to it, I will be happy to look! I've got to say I think I agree with you Neko. This might well be of some benefit to someone, but it certainly isnt going to get you the same results as years of mediation. I read the one with the Mediation teacher and it reminded me of the Emperors new clothes story.

My hunch is that its getting people to the point that reading the very first Ekhart tolle book did for me, When I realised I wasnt my thoughts.

Gateless Gatecrashers : Ilona Ciunaite :

That was important, and it was the start of the journey for me, but thats the start, not the end, as far as I am concerned. I have been having some insights - mostly intellectual - the most recent being that a label such as "bottle," "cloud," or "Jeff" can't be experienced, even though the 'thing' being pointed to can indeed be experienced. But is that it?

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It seems like a letdown; a illumination only in that our linguistic symantics are fluid and we often mistake the finger for the moon. I have not had anything close to the direct seeing that I would anticipate. I might be getting closer with the BB material. The quotes I provided above were illuminating. They keep hammering home the point of "I don't exist.

Is that true? Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg Posts: I'm impressed with their methods and was helped both by the "Direct Pointing" method and the "Deep Looking" method that Illona and co.

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From my perspective this is possibly the fastest way to "stream entry" or 1:st path not really sure about path definitions. More importantly it does break down the false-self belief in a very radical, and hopefully permanent, way like no other method has for me. Of course a few days of DP won't give the same 'benefits' as 10 years of Vipassana, but why would it and why would that comparison even be valid. I've met people who have been meditating for decades and still have no fucking clue what they are doing and why they are doing it, this DP stuff gets to the nuts and bolts of the problem very fast.

My only criticism of the LU community and it is a mild one is that it doesn't really pick up that well were it leaves the seeker.


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Once the no-self is seen, it's almost the end game for that particular teaching. I would prefer to see it integrated into a more comprehensive framework of practise that can move people further along the path once the first and possibly biggest hurdle is over come. Then again, I would also consider skipping a lot of the meditation I have done, especially the concentration meditations.

That can be saved for last IMO, if you're not just chasing altered states. The community around LU is nice and they main crew definetely have high levels of attainment, but there's also a bit of an "that's it, I'm done" attitude I am picking up on. Personally I'm using the superior AQAL map to track my evolution and I find that once you are past the no-self stage it becomes more a process of energy- and shadow-work.

Eric B Posts: I did the LU thing, not recently.

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I went through a dialogue that left me with the same intellectual understanding I had when I started. My answers must have sounded right because at one point my guide asked my how it felt to be awake or something of that ilk. Overall, an underwhelming experience. Darrell Posts: I'm starting to think Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Rob Burbea and others are correct.

That "no self" is a mistranslation and misunderstanding. I think the understanding is not that the self doesn't exist but that it is not what it seems to be. This couples to the two other Cs, dukkha suffering and anicca impermanence , in that because we take it to be permanent and unchanging we suffer when we experience that it isn't. Psi Posts: These last questions merit straightforward answers, as they then help you to comprehend stress and to chip away at the attachment and clinging — the residual sense of self-identification — that cause it, until ultimately all traces of self-identification are gone and all that's left is limitless freedom.

In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self? In reference to the heard, only the heard.

In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized.

That is how you should train yourself. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two.